American Swing

We're talking about swinging,

two couples who swing. Larry Levenson is here.

He's owner of Plato's Retreat in New York City,

an actual commercial establishment where people can go and swing.

Some of the tenets of swingers

include the separation of... What they say

is the separation of sex and love.

We promote social intercourse and sexual intercourse.

Whatever you want to do, you can do.

- Aren't you illegal? - No. No way.

Sex is not illegal anyplace in New York.

But I couldn't open a cathouse, could I?

Well, that's paid sex.

The '70s were a transitional period.

It was when the ethic of the '60s took hold.

1500 cops are injured.

People were complaining New York had become a pit of vice.

That contributed to disco

and Plato's also played its part

in suddenly turning things around in New York

and making New York what it was...

The most exciting city in the world.

1977 in New York was a fabulous year.

Sexuality was in the air.

Everybody was immensely curious.

Lots and lots of heteros would go to the gay clubs

just to look at the glory holes.

And lots of people who were not remotely exhibitionistic would go to Plato's.

Swing couples went there to swap.

You try my wife and I'll try your wife.

Forget about the sex. You could wander around. You could actually swim.

You could eat this free third-rate buffet...

which I always considered tempting, but dangerous.

They had dancing. They had a show.

I thought to myself, "this really can't be real.

Maybe I'm watching a dirty movie."

But it was a dirty movie that really came to life.

Friends of mine said that they went there by looking at it on cable television.

I was never in Plato's Retreat.

I have no idea if they in fact took off...

Other than clothing.

10 years earlier everyone was rolling around naked

in Woodstock, you know,

and smoking pot and screwing their brains out, you know,

in the meadows.

So this was just an indoor version that was accessible to New Yorkers.

I am Larry's sister. We were five years apart.

We were very very close

and we grew up as best friends.

My parents had a very conventional lifestyle and marriage.

My father was a hard-working man.

He was in the kosher meat business.

Oldest memories of Larry are as a...

smiling young man,

didn't really love the academic pursuits.

When I first met Larry, he had just gotten out of the service.

He had told me that his father had a butcher shop

and he was a wholesale distributer of briskets.

And he would work nights.

And I really feel that some of the times that he said

he was working, he wasn't working.

When he first married Gloria, I don't think any of us thought that it wouldn't last

because we didn't know anybody who had separated or divorced.

I thought he was cheating on me.

My dad and my mom got divorced when I was six.

So my dad really wasn't around a lot.

My parents separated when I was very young.

So my first recollection actually is when my dad used to work at McDonald's

and he brought me the hamburglar... it was a little stuffed hamburglar.

So that's what I used to sleep with... I used to sleep with a little hamburglar.

All I can remember is through those years,

my mother yelling at my father on the phone, "they're waiting for you.

You didn't show up. You said you were coming."

And of course every business that Larry was in was on the weekends.

So the times when fathers would be with their children,

Larry was either off selling sodas on the beach

or preparing for swingers parties,

wherever they might be held.

I was very surprised when Larry was involved

in that kind of lifestyle.

I really didn't think that it was something that would be his thing to do.

But maybe I just didn't know him that well.

You know what I don't like to see is this thing about you have to be monogamous.

I say nobody's monogamous. And if you make somebody say

that you're fucking monogamous and you're gonna be legitimate,

"I married her. I'm never gonna fuck," I'm a liar.

The swinging movement was very small

and very secret.

We all have jobs and we all pay mortgages.

Just because we consider ourselves swingers,

we're not freaks of nature.

At a swing party, you can go, you can find... meet other people

that maybe can meet some of your sexual needs

that maybe your spouse can't.

And yet you don't have to go out and cheat.

Swinging is a situation where a man and a woman,

part of their sex life

is to find other couples or other people

that have similar interests,

that they like socially, they like to be with,

but in particular they want to have sex with.

The meeting area was usually a bar

that they took over for Friday, Saturday night.

I worked as a waitress and some guys used to come in

and they brought in "screw" magazine and I brought it home

and I showed it to Charlie.

- And that's all it took. - And there were all kinds of ads in it.

- And we started to think about it. - Get interested.

It was interesting.

It was a place for them to dance,

have a drink, meet each other.

I remember it looked more like a Bar Mitzvah.

I don't know anybody's last name in any of these places.

And yet you can go home with them, make love to them,

spend the weekend with them, kiss them goodbye...

"see you next week, John, Mary. Bye-bye."

And that's the end of it and you're best friends for life.

People would be handing out slips that say,

"okay, there's a party on the east side tonight."

The only problem is when you're stoned,

and I said, "Now I gotta go to Queens?"

I met Larry Levenson at a party back in the mid-'70s

in Coney Island, Brooklyn.

And he started arranging some organized swing parties.

He liked the idea

of being able to have that scene out in the open

the way gay bars did.

It was a one-man band at the beginning.

It was just him and Mary and maybe a couple of other people.

Mary made all the phone calls.

Mary did a lot of the footwork.

Mary was actually responsible for putting together

the logo of Plato's.

The backward twos was Mary's idea.

I'm going to ask you one of my favorite indiscreet questions.

How did you and Larry meet? Now come on, the truth now.

Well, I had come with another young man to Plato's

in its first location.

And I fell in love with him on the spot.

Mary and Larry were swingers

And they started the club together.

And it seemed like a perfect idea

and a way to be close.

So it was a family thing.

What did he say? Do you remember?

Out with it!

I was on my way to the ladies' room

and he told me to come on in the water.

And I told him I couldn't right then

because I was on my way to the ladies' room.

And he said, "come on in. The water's nice and warm

and that's how it got that way."

That's it, that's Larry... Mr. Taste.

- You got to know Mary better than me... - Yes.

Physically and mentally.

That might have been your first female, I think. Really, huh?

- No. - No?

It mushroomed from there.

Got ahold of a hotel...

This hotel basement pool area.

Yeah, so this call came in from somebody...

I don't remember who it is anymore,

some friend or acquaintance and said, "there's this live sex club

where people are having sex in front of everybody."

And I said, "you mean a gay bar?"

and they said, "no no, these are straight people."

for couples only.

And of course we always invited single ladies.

It was a tacky little place.

And sitting behind there is this guy Larry...

Who I later learned is Larry Levenson. He seemed in charge

and he's sitting there in a towel,

and that's it.

One of the best parts of it for me

was that it was relaxed in the sense that people

were coming and not necessarily doing anything.

Not even necessarily taking their clothes off.

Two of the men...

were wearing no clothes

except for black socks and shoes.

And walking around that way, kinda like that stag-film look.

So I wrote it up.

I played it pretty big.

And a few days later I went there... went back.

Plato's was a simple name. It's the only one I could spell actually.

So we used Plato's. Then after that I found out

that Plato's was gay, but it was too late.

The lines were just unbelievable.

I mean we went from, what? 30, 40 couples or people

to 400!

Now you have a lot of people that don't know the old crowd.

There were people that used to come to Plato's

that to most people... would say were not the most physically appealing,

but they were the nicest people you'd ever want to meet in the world.

They were walking around with the black socks and the shoes,