Denial

I don't see any reason to be tasteful about Auschwitz.

I say to you quite tastelessly

that more women died on the back seat

of Senator Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick

than ever died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz.

Holocaust denial rests on

four basic assertions.

Number one.

That there was never any systematic or organized attempt by the Nazis

to kill all of Europe's Jews.

Number two.

That the numbers are far fewer than five or six million.

Number three.

That there were no gas chambers

or specially built extermination facilities.

Number four.

That the Holocaust is therefore a myth

invented by Jews

to get themselves financial compensation

and to further the fortunes of the State of Israel.

War, the deniers say, is a bloody business.

There's nothing special about the Jews,

they're not unique in their suffering.

They're just everyday casualties of war.

What's the fuss?

Okay, and here's another question,

how do we know the Holocaust happened?

Seriously. I'm asking. How do we prove it?

Photographic evidence?

Not one person in this room or outside it

has ever seen a photograph of a Jew inside a gas chamber.

You know why?

Because the Germans made sure that none were ever taken.

So how do we know?

How do we know that so many were murdered?

So what's the proof? Where's the proof?

How strong is it?

Good morning on Veterans Day,

ceremonies being held today

here in Washington and across the country.

Here, Mutt. I'm Bob Edwards.

Today is Friday, November 11th,

and this is NPR's Morning Edition.

- Morning, Professor Lipstadt. - Good morning.

Good morning, Professor. Morning.

- Morning. - Morning.

Speech. Two copies with corrections.

And Jamie called from NBC.

They still want the interview about the book.

These go back to the library. You make copies.

All right. I'll take this.

And he needs water.

- You want a hand with that? - I'm okay.

And Atlanta weather on this Veterans Day,

mostly sunny with clouds creeping in

by the end of the afternoon.

I do a lot of these events.

So if you could put a table at the back.

Right by the door, uh, perfect as they leave.

Oh, I certainly will.

Any writer will tell you, at these events

you always sell 37 books.

No matter what size, uh, the audience.

If it's 50 people, 37 books

and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed? Do you think it's fixed?

Thank you so much, Deborah.

But I think we better get things started, yeah?

Everyone, it is my pleasure to introduce

the holder of the Dorot Chair

in Jewish and Holocaust Studies

at Emory University

and the author of Denying the Holocaust;

The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory,

Deborah Lipstadt.

Whatever the reasons that people become deniers,

when you look closely,

they often have an agenda which they won't admit to.

So denial is a pick to undo the lock

to open the door to something else.

Yes.

Somebody told me you don't debate with people

who say the Holocaust didn't happen.

Uh, that is correct.

Like I don't debate with people who say Elvis is alive.

Talking to people you don't agree with,

that's democracy, isn't it?

It's cowardly not to talk to them.

Are you calling me a coward?

Well... No, no, listen.

I... I don't see it that way.

You can have opinions about the Holocaust.

You can argue about why it happened

and how it happened.

But what I won't do is meet with anyone, anyone,

who says it didn't happen.

Because the Holocaust happened. It happened.

And that isn't opinion. That's fact.

And I won't debate fact.

In your book, why do you continually

denigrate the work of David Irving?

He's a scholar. He's discovered all sorts of

primary sources no one else knew about.

Well, to be honest,

I don't think I do denigrate him.

Actually, I don't really think about him that much.

I don't think he's worth my time.

Yes, sir. Gentleman in the back.

Professor Lipstadt.

Uh, let me reveal something to you, Professor.

I am that David Irving about whom you have been so rude.

Yes, yes, lam he.

And it puzzles me

that you think yourself qualified to attack me,

given that I have 30 years' experience in the archives

and my books have been published by

some of the greatest publishing houses in the world.

Viking Press, William Morrow, E.P. Dutton.

I have to conclude

that the reason you don't engage

with people you disagree with

is because you can't and you might learn some facts.

Facts, Miss Lipstadt,

which don't suit your opinions.

Well? Well?

Mr. Irving, I will not debate you.

Not here. Not now. Not ever.

So if you would please just sit down

and you can go and speak

in another room at another time.

You want gullible students to believe

that there are mounds of documents

which prove a Holocaust.

You even said that Hitler ordered it.

Well, I've got $1,000

in my pocket. Yes, $1,000,

and I'm willing to give that $1,000

to anyone, anyone, who can show me a document

that proves that Hitler ordered the killing of the Jews.

Here it is. This is not your Q&A.

You can go and speak somewhere else.

Who pays for you to write your books?

I need someone from security.

Who is it that finances all your expensive trips...

Sit down. Mr. Irving! Sit down or leave.

Can you deal with this guy?

Okay, step in.

Ah, Miss Lipstadt not only won't debate.

She calls security to stop me from debating.

No, leave it. Leave it. GUARD: I'm gonna need you to sit down.

So be it. If anybody wants,

I shall be signing my books after the event.

My books, they're free.

Come and get one.

Thank you.

$1,000! $1,000!

An example of real history.

I hope you find it edifying.

Real history opposed to

manufactured history and sentimentalized.

Ah.

Today I've heard you telling lies to students.

Speak in another room at another time.

You want gullible students to believe...

Perfect.

Deborah, I'm glad you've called.

It's wonderful to hear from you.

I'm guessing you got our letter.

It's why I'm calling.

Irving's just sent us notice of a suit to be filed in the High Court

because we've failed to withdraw the book.

The High Court? The High Court in London.

It's a libel suit.

He's saying you're part of a concerted worldwide conspiracy

to rob him of his reputation as a professional historian

and thereby of his livelihood.

I Wish.

So what's the next step?

Next step is, you tell us if you want to fight.

A throng with 400 skinheads, neo-Nazis

and supporters of extreme right-wing groups.

The British historian David Irving,

speaking in German, addressed the rally...

telling them that Germans no longer

had anything to be ashamed of.

Praising Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess,

as a German hero and a martyr.

According to the evidence I've seen,

there were no gas chambers anywhere at Auschwitz.

I'm dealing with Auschwitz because it's the capital ship

of the whole Holocaust campaign.

Now if Auschwitz sinks, and it is, believe me,

a very leaky vessel indeed,

then the whole Holocaust campaign is in doubt.

- I've decided. I'm taking him on. - What?

Why are you letting him get to you?

Nine-tenths of these things don't even get to court.

They don't get to court 'cause people settle. I can't settle.

The man's a liar. Someone needs to say so.

What I don't get, why has he chosen you?

Know what I think?